Zipang

[f_manu]

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Okay

I misunderstood ! Excuse me

Nukes are a touchy topic for the Japaneses. According to my (fuzzy) memory, somebody in Japan (I don' remember who, sorry) referred recently to nukes ... This could explain my mistake ???

[klemenslothar]

somebody in Japan (I don' remember who, sorry) referred recently to nukes ... This could explain my mistake ???

Yes, it could. Commentators often mix a lot of situations which aren't connected with each other and reach a wrong conclusion. [:nikopole:1]
But it's not your fault. Understanding a foreign country from abroad is not easy at all. I don't know anything about French political situations.

[Claudio Lopez]

Bonjour tout le monde ! Hello every body !

Klemens ! You are the best recrue that I have seen since I frequent this forum !

Thanks to you, this topic is more alive since you’re here !

But before to comment your previous message, I had to welcome two new recrue !

Aspirant Bib (alias Lebrac) ! :
Aspirant Tzynn!
Bienvenue au sein de notre navire matelot !

Mon nom est Roger Couillard !
Votre Adjudant chef !

Comme vous êtes nouveau, je tiens à mettre les choses au clair tout de suite, et je ne le répèterai pas deux fois !

Vous etes des soldats donc je réclame de la discipline !
Je ne veux aucun branleur au sein de mon équipage !
Le premier que je vois en train de glander, je l’envoie tout de suite en cuisine !


Et surtout, je ne veux aucun trouillard parmi mes hommes !
Au combat, tout le monde se bat et personne ne recule !
Le premier que qu'il bat en retraite sans mon ordre, je le bute !

Vous devrez faire honneur à vous même, honneur à votre navire, à surtout honneur au Drapeau !

Vous devez faire preuve de courage, de loyauté, de ténacité et surtout de combativité !

C’est votre mission soldat !
Rompez !

Et suivez l’exemple du matelot Klemens !

[klemenslothar]

You did again, Claudio.

I'll show you guys another 2 covers of the "MORNING."

This is the trio of the Mirai.
On the left side of the cover, it says,
"The days of fighting against the fault of history. Their course is always to peace in the future."
Mmmm. Their white uniforms and the blue ocean match with the expressions.

I'll hide the next cover.[spoiler][/spoiler]Please do not click above if you don't want to know the future course of Zipang.
Kusaka, Kadomatsu, and 2 ships are in this picture. Of course, one is the Mirai. And the other.... !?
At the center of the picture, there is a sentence crucial for the climax of Zipang!!! [:zagorklerouge]
I want to translate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [:prejoris]
But I won't.
To tell the truth, it's so small that I can't read it accurately. [:marion n:2]

[Claudio Lopez]

Klemens !

Attention !
You play a dangerous game with these pictures !
The covert picture of the volume 16 don't disturb me because it was also available in the french Web site editor.

But the last picture could be problematic. Even it's inside on the spoiler balise. [:prejoris]

I didn't see it and I'm afraid that it will reveal a capital information of the last volume. [:prejoris]
You said yourself, there's a sentence crucial for the climax of ZIPANG !
Fortunately, I don't know Japanese !

But I am also very curious to see the other boat !
Yamato ? Musachi ?
Or USS Enterprise ? Or USS MISSOURI ?

So I also heard the good information about the declaration of your defense minister "The using of the bomb H in Hiroshima was inevitable".
Manu probably misunderstood.
A such declaration by a japanese politician was really amazing !
It was a political hara-kiri ! If he wanted to stop his political carrer, he used the best way !

[Claudio Lopez]

As I already said, it's not necessary to translate in French your comments. The automatic translator works badly. It's more comprehensible to read you in english that the automatics tanslator.

But I rewrote your translation with the good words just to show you that the google translator sucks.

J'ai obtenu ces deux images sur le net ("le tissu" is the mater what we used to make clothes). Les deux sont en couverture ("les abris" is like a refuge ) d'un magazine hebdomadaire. Il comporte un sujet sur Zipang.
Il est écrit sur la couverture avec Kusaka "Arme nucléaire de l'Espoir".
Il est écrit "la Paix est ma grande justice" sur la couverture avec Kadomatsu.

La couverture avec Kusaka a été publié il y a 2 semaines. Cela m'a surpris.
Quelque japonais pensent que l'image de Kusaka a un côté érotique.
Mais "l'arme nucléaire de l'Espoir" est une phrase taboue au Japon. Le Ministre de Défense a été forcé à démissionner il y a quelques semaines parce qu'il a fait une déclaration sur le coté positif du bombardement atomique sur le Japon. J'ai été étonné en regardant cette couverture.

"La paix est ma même justice" est très approprié pour l'éthique de Kadomatsu.
Est-ce que vous savez de quel région viennent Kawaguchi et Kadomatsu ?
Kawaguchi est d'Onomichi, Hiroshima.
Et Kure, une ville à côté de Hiroshima, elle avait à l'époque de la seconde guerre mondiale une grande base navale et elle est devenue maintenant une base JMSDF.
Kadomatsu est de Sasebo, Nagasaki. Sasebo avait une base navale dans WW2 et a maintenant les bases de Marine nationale Américaine et JMSDF.

Kawaguchi et Kadomatsu sont originaires de la même ville natale. Je pense que l'idéologie de Kawaguchi est proche de celle de Kadomatsu.

Today, I watched in Euronews channel , the commemoration of the Nagasaki bombing.

A touhing moment...
I understand better the nuclear weapon is very sensible subject.

[klemenslothar]

About translation

I understood that automatic translation is unnatural. It seems that words which have plural meanings are mistranslated. And I realized by reading your translation how shallowly we understand European languages. You know, we don't have articles and prepositions in Japanese. I wrote, "Kusaka's cover" and you translated, "La couverture avec Kusaka." "Avec" means "with", doesn't it? We can't use "with" like that.


About the Nagasaki bombing

Though I live in Nagasaki département and atomic-bombed victims would be mad to hear this, I have been fed up with the prayer for "No More Nagasaki". Of course I won't be against the prayer itself. But I can't deny the fact that Japan has been protected by the American nuclear deterrent. I can never ever be the Minister of Defense of Japan. [:prejoris]


About "the other ship" and "a crucial sentence"

I have already told you about them in the Dailymotion though I deleted them. [:zagorklerouge] But don't worry. If you were to know them, you will never be disappointed. The story itself is by far more exciting. I assert it! [:xuunam:5]


About the cover of volume 16

Has it been already available?
There is no "raison d'etre" of me! [:nikopole:1]
Well then, I'll show you the cover of volume 17! [:ludicogne] [spoiler][/spoiler]

[bib]

Ha Zipang, ton univers impitoyable !
Bon bin, je vais en cuisine comme tout bon branleur glouton qui se respecte.

Très instructives, ces petites discussions (je suis malheureusement moins féru en 2nde Guerre Mondiale que vous).

[klemenslothar]

je suis malheureusement moins féru en 2nde Guerre Mondiale que vous.

I also like the period of Vagabond better when I study history. But the story of Vagabond is the fact or legend about Musashi Miyamoto which is well-known to Japanese people. On the other hand, the story of Zipang is much deeper by that "ridiculous" time travel. And the theme of Zipang makes us think about the past of just 60 or 70 years ago and the "raison d'etre" of nuclear weapons. I can recognize and feel the happiness of peace through the story.

[Claudio Lopez]

About translation

I understood that automatic translation is unnatural. It seems that words which have plural meanings are mistranslated. And I realized by reading your translation how shallowly we understand European languages. You know, we don't have articles and prepositions in Japanese. I wrote, "Kusaka's cover" and you translated, "La couverture avec Kusaka." "Avec" means "with", doesn't it? We can't use "with" like that.
]

You don't have article and préposition in Japonese !
What luck !
The preposition and article is one of the aspect of the french language which are more difficult for the stranger people.

Because, each word could be féminine or masculine.

But to come back with the translation "Kusaka's cover". Your translation could be good also but it's a few clumsy (maladroit).
When you use the expression "Kusaka's Cover ", you used what we called in french "Le cas possessif " (the possessive case) . If I translate word by word , that means "La couverture de Kusaka "
So, we understood very good but in another contexte, the french reader can understand " The cover which belong to Kusaka " And we know that Kusaka hasn't got any cover ! He just published in the cover !
He don't get it materialy speaking !

That's why instead to translate "Le cas possessif", I prefer to use the preposition "avec" that means "with" as you noticed. It's more suitable to translate "Kusaka's cover" as "La couverture avec Kusaka.

On parle de linguistique dans un forum ! J'allucine !

About "the other ship" and "a crucial sentence"

I have already told you about them in the Dailymotion though I deleted them. [:zagorklerouge] But don't worry. If you were to know them, you will never be disappointed. The story itself is by far more exciting. I assert it! [:xuunam:5]


About the cover of volume 16

Has it been already available?
There is no "raison d'etre" of me! [:nikopole:1]
Well then, I'll show you the cover of volume 17! [:ludicogne] [spoiler]http://img.7andy.jp/bks/images/i0/07141160.JPG[/spoiler]

In fact, I read only the 3 first line and I stop reading at once the rest of your message.
I know only a few élements...but now I know the name of this famous boat . But chuut!!!

Tant pis ! Je le dis quand même !

It's "LA CALYPSO " !
Again a french joke !
It's the name of the Cousteau 's boat !

The cover of volume 17 looks good, Taki will become an very important characher. Even Kikuchi and Oguri didn't have this privilege !

So I have also the possibility to see all the cover but I prefer you put the next cover in a another time.
For the volume 18, It's would be good to publish it when the volume 16 will be available. In september 7 !

Tomorow, I'll go in holyday .
A trekking in the mountain !

I'll come back at the end of august !

[klemenslothar]

The cover of volume 17 looks good, Taki will become an very important characher. Even Kikuchi and Oguri didn't have this privilege !

You thought so.
Actually, he's not Taki but Kadomatsu in a uniform of the IJN.
There was such a scene in volume 13 or 14, I believe.
Many Japanese also say that it is hard to distinguish Taki from Kadomatsu. I don't know what the difference is between them. But he looks definitely Kadomatsu to me.

I'll show you guys the cover of volume 18 on September 7.

[Claudio Lopez]

You thought so.
Actually, he's not Taki but Kadomatsu in a uniform of the IJN.
There was such a scene in volume 13 or 14, I believe.
Many Japanese also say that it is hard to distinguish Taki from Kadomatsu. I don't know what the difference is between them. But he looks definitely Kadomatsu to me.

I'll show you guys the cover of volume 18 on September 7.

Shame on me !
How I could do a such mistake !

In fact, I saw the cover fastly and I didn't attention.
But If I looked at attentively, the face of Kadomatsu is evident !
It was his uniform that mislead me !

But it's an inexucable fault !

We can't mislead with the face of Kadomatsu because he's got a imposing chin !

That's mean an important thing !

I need some holydays !

So this evening, I'll go in the vosges in order to do trekking and in my return I'll be in form !

Vive la randonnée et à moi la nature et l'air pur des montagnes !

See you in one week !

[Benji]

Bon ben j'ai profité des vacances pour lire le tome 15.
Je trouve qu'il apporte une fraicheur bienvenue, basée sur les relations internes à l'équipage du Miraï.
Si les ressorts de Zipang étaient uniquement le décalage technologique entre la 2ème GM et l'époque moderne, ça serait devenu pénible rapidement. On peut en faire un film, mais pas une série de plus de 30 Mangas!
Par ailleurs, le fait que Yamamoto meurt montre une nouvelle fois qu'on est pas dans un "what if?", une réécriture de l'histoire, et que la grande Histoire sera respectée jusqu'au bout. Autre "preuve" à mes yeux: le Japon recule. Certes, ce n'est plus après la perte de batailles, mais le résultat est le même.
Ce qui est intéressant dans Zipang ce sont les réactions à un phénomène bouleversant, que cela soit dans le milieu confiné du Miraï ou face aux gens confrontés à lui (Japonais ou Américains).
Bref, je suis content de la tournure que prend l'histoire. J'ai aussi hâte de savoir ce qui va se passer dans l'Océan Indien...
PS: Claudio, tu recommences à appeler les "sailors" des "soldiers". Tu es à deux doigts du blâme, mon ami...

[klemenslothar]

J'ai aussi hâte de savoir ce qui va se passer dans l'Océan Indien...

Hello, Benji [:ludicogne:2]

I shouldn't talk much about the future course of Zipang, but volume 16 is just a prelude to the volumes after 16. So it might disappoint you.
But don't get me wrong. This "prelude" contains some hints about the future course of Zipang. And not all of them are yet revealed up to the 322nd episode in Japan.
Volume 16 may not be exciting. But I think it is a key-volume.

[Benji]

Thanks Klemenslothar.
You know, I can wait. I do not think I will be too much disapointed if everyhting does not happen in volume 16. Volume 15 was good enough to make me hooked again!
Since you are from Japan, there is one question I would like to ask you. We discussed this with Claudio and we do not agree about that: in one of the older volumes (sorry I do not remember which one) the crew of the Mirai puts Imperial Navy uniforms to pass as "normal soldiers" in the eyes of the soldiers they saved. One of the sailors cried saying that he wished his parents could see him like that.
I have to say I was shocked. If I hear a French man say that he wished his parents would see him dressed in a Milice uniform (the French militia that worked with the Nazis during WW2) I would feel like this guy regrets the regime...
So, in your opinion, are some people in Japan nostalgic of the military regime of WW2 Japan? I know it is a big question because it means in fact "How do Japanese people feel toward theit History during WW2?" but I would love to hear your thoughts about that...

[klemenslothar]

in one of the older volumes the crew of the Mirai puts Imperial Navy uniforms to pass as "normal soldiers" in the eyes of the soldiers they saved. One of the sailors cried saying that he wished his parents could see him like that.

First of all, we have to consider that he was Yanagi. He is a fanatic "OTAKU" about military history. Judging from his rank and looks, he is nearly 30 years old or so. To get such a knowledge at his age, he may have had a man involved in military around him in his childhood. I don't know whether the man is his father or not. More possibly, his grandfather.

Though I haven't checked all of his lines, if it is the case, his family (I don't know whether I should include him among them or not) might affirm "Yasukuni-Shikan", which means Yasukuni Shrine's view of history.
"Yasukuni-Shikan" says, "The Greater East Asia War was inevitable to protect Japan from the Allies and achieve the independence of Asian countries. The Allies are responsible for the breakout of the war."

I have to say I was shocked. If I hear a French man say that he wished his parents would see him dressed in a Milice uniform (the French militia that worked with the Nazis during WW2) I would feel like this guy regrets the regime...

I disagree with "Yasukuni-Shikan" and think that the militarists at that time were all unbelievable fools. But I don't think they were all the same as the Nazis. Let alone, they are heroes to those who affirm "Yasukuni-Shikan". They call dead soldiers in any war as "Eirei", which means "the soul of a hero". According to the wikipedia, 2,466,532 "Eireis" are enshrined in Yasukuni as of October 17, 2004.

Though I don't want to call those stupid militarists as "Eirei", Eireis at the bottom of ranks went to the frontlines thinking, "I have to protect Japan and my family." Every one of them is a hero to me too.

Briefly speaking, there are 3 types of opinion. The one of right-wingers is close to "Yasukuni-Shikan". The one of liberalists is close to mine. And the one of left-wingers is close to yours about Nazis.

[klemenslothar]

Hello!

Volume 31 is released at last in Japan.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I intended to show the cover of volume 18 on Sept. 7th.
But I'll show you now.
[spoiler][/spoiler]On the cover, it says....[spoiler]"IJN invades to Indian Ocean! At last, history begins to move...."[/spoiler]Wow. How exciting!

[Claudio Lopez]

Me revoilà !

Cela fait bien 3 semaines que je n'ai plus remis les pied dans ce forum!
Me voilà, d'attaque pour la rentrée !

Rien de telle qu'une bonne randonnée à la montagne pour se ressourcer et pour se couper du monde, de la télé, des médias, d'internet, des forums ...

Et bien, je vois que ce forum a peu évolué à part le retour de ce bon vieux Benji.
BENJI !
Sache que l'adjudant Roger Couillard ne fait plus d'erreur !
Bon c'est vrai que lors de son message en anglais, il a continué d'appelé ses hommes en "soldier" mais grace à toi il les appellera désormais ses "Sailor" ! Promis !

Sinon, intéressant que tu ais lancé notre discussion de la dernière fois avec notre ami nippon Klemens.
D'ailleurs, il t'a donné une réponse assez convaincante sur les larmes du premier maître Yanagi lorsqu'il a revètu l'uniforme de la marine impériale.

KLEMENS !
You aren't patient !
You would have to stay until september 7th to publish the covert of the volume 18.

But it's nothing, the information of this covert isn't capital (We have already known it since the 15 th volume).
And that's means, we have to stay until this volume in order to see the next battle.

Until january 2008!

But at first we stay the september 7th, and we'll have more details on the operation "YZ" and above all, we'll see the meeting between Kadomatsu and Kusaka.

[klemenslothar]

Until january 2008!

I don't think so.
I don't know why such the phrase is written on the cover, but you have only to wait until November.

[Claudio Lopez]

Super !

[Claudio Lopez]

Pour tout amateurs d'histoire de la seconde guerre mondiale.
Il y a un formidable documentaire qui va passer ce soir sur france 2 à 22H55.

Son titre est "Ils ont filmé la guerre en couleur".
C'est un documentaire sur les images d'archives en couleur de l'armée américaine dont l'essentielle a été tourné durant les batailles du Pacifique.


Il s'agit d'un grand moment d'histoire, je l'ai déjà vu mais je ne m'en souviens déjà plus.
J'ai hate de le revoir surtout que c'est commenté par la voix envoutante de André Dussolier.

Donc à tout les amateurs de batailles maritimes qui n'ont pas déjà vu ce documentaire.
Réservez votre soirée ou lancer les magnétoscopes!

Mais attention, il me semble que certaines images sont un peu dure mais c'était la guerre...